Curse

Ka RaTae · Apr 28, 2006, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Kiwi

exactly. hopefully if we wine enough they'll change it back.

I just want to say again that there are skills that OWN a mm - barrage/cyclone+JI - EOE - signet of creation (with the help of kiting) - various fire magic spells (with a tank) - veratas aura/gaze - probably more

You never see Minions in true PVP...Halls or GVG. So this fix doesn't mess with them...it's major effect is towards PvE fun. PVE Tombs and FOW/UW.

Correction...you sometimes see MM groups in Tombs for about 30 secs. Till you spike the MM's or put down a Max Edge. GG MM Team.

Darkpower Alchemist · Apr 28, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

You guys are funny. MMs have been overpowered, and in recent,overused. Hence,the nerf axe falls. Yet,the MM isn't going the route of the Elemantalist yet.

Verata's Sacrifice does blow,and I am against that particular aspect of the nerf.However,the rest of it makes since for a few reasons. Logically speaking,
how would a MM maintain an army of more than ten minions without being pressed bodily to do so?Heal Area,BoTM,V-Sacrifice(Pre nerf), and this same 10 minion army can go very far.

The crying is for the people who can't deal with change. I understand that human beings don't welcome drastic changes,so this is expected.However,I say"GET A HOLD OF YOURSELVES!" This isn't the end of the world. I was gonna used Verata's Aura and take your minions anyway,so think of it as less for me to use against you poor saps

. Joking,but seriously, It's not the end of the world.

IWAY,once again,can't be nerfed in good conscience because its not the skill that is overpowered,but the group that is using it. The skill, "I Will Avenge You!",is not overpowered in a solo situation,so it will never get nerfed IMO.

The limits placed on the MM build,however,went unchecked,and with the new skills and the ramifications of a 12 Vs 12 battle,they would be too powerful if left that way. Imagine an IWAY team with all those pets,dead on the floor, the warriors scream that hated scream,and the MMs raising those dead bodies into minions at the same time.You can hardly stomach IWAY teams now,so how would you handle that? Even Verata's Aura cant save you fast enough from that.Remember,V-Aura takes a health sacrifice of 33%,so that puts that anti MM skill in jeopardy during use. Barrage is only hitting the wall of flesh,slow but effective,but again,only to be mowed down by that same IWAY team you all hate so much.I think I've said enough to give you the picture.

Former Ruling · Apr 28, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka RaTae

You never see Minions in true PVP...Halls or GVG. So this fix doesn't mess with them...it's major effect is towards PvE fun. PVE Tombs and FOW/UW.

Correction...you sometimes see MM groups in Tombs for about 30 secs. Till you spike the MM's or put down a Max Edge. GG MM Team.

Actually Bunny Smite teams in GvG always run a part-MM, atleast that I've seen.

and there are higher and higher ranked teams swithing to Bunny Smite (faced a guild that was in the low 100s in rank that used it).

UndeadRoadkill · Apr 28, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

There are countless people i could easily go and prove wrong, which is not even funny. People who are crying about this nerf, realized the time when other professions got nerfed and they were passively buffed because they were left as the major damage dealers of entire game? Let me tell you why you are crying out loud right now. Just like once eles ( including my self ) cried. We were major damage dealers. An army of One. Someone said Oh Necros are so fragile, and this and that. You think someone can pass through so many minnions easily and kill a necro at first place? Being one man army is all we want. And when we are pushed towards being balanced, we cry. I feel buffed in long time as elemental. Even though i held a minnion master, and nearly found SS and other stuff a Joke for my usage in terms of efficiency and hard times, i stoped playing necros. They made me feel cheap. MM always had a better life than any of us. Every team wanted an MM in their build. Now, they will get other professions along with MM to support them, what is so bad about the game being balanced? Think for a moment, if you were on the oposite end of an Alliance battle with a person in oposite team, holding 40 minnions, what would u do ? go and kill him? or try to prove how cool he is? You would hate him for him being so over powered. At this point, an MM can't solo no more with minnions in missions, which seems much balanced to me. For the person who said MM are fragile, how do you solo if they are so fragile? I know exactly how it feels to be on the wrong side of nerf hammer, and guys, accept it. Just like we eles did, for possibly the longest time of this game. We were nerfed to the grounds, and barrage teams just rocked on the back of an MM to tank for them. Now, Tactics are required, and Playing MM is not that easy since you do not hold the entire mission/farming area in your palm.
Live with this. Just like we all are living through nerfs, watching our favourite professions getting nerfed to ground. Every profession rises after the nerf, but takes time. Till then, Good Game To all of You.
It is time that you MMs should stop thinking like once we eles did of ourselves in this game, which was.. Superior. We both are balanced now, As much as an Ele needs you to block foes from him while dishing out the damage, you need an ele to start creating large piles of corpses for you in PVE. And in some places, Alliance battles type PVP too. Mind you, i am not saying other professions dont kill. What i mean to say is, eles are passively buffed by this nerf, and we both can play on equal terms now.

Regardz
An Elementalist.

Geez, I never went around showing off or thinking I was superior. I play mostly by myself or with a few close friends. I just had a lot of fun raising huge armies (and my team mates had fun with me doing it as well, by all accounts). I'm wondering if it's still going to be as much fun.

bobrath · Apr 28, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Even Verata's Aura cant save you fast enough from that.Remember,V-Aura takes a health sacrifice of 33%,so that puts that anti MM skill in jeopardy during use.

The power of VAura is that it removes control of the summons from the minion master. So what if the VAura caster dies. Both teams have to deal with the aggro minions - neither team gets a true benefit from it. Even if the original master casts VAura to reclaim... the control expires with VAura. You've now taken permanent control and swapped it to an expiring (or strippable) enchantment. VAura can and will save you from MM armies.

But again, it makes more sense that MMs were nerfed due to the PvE overpower and not the PvP uses.

Yukito Kunisaki · Apr 28, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

I'm a Minion Bomber...

Most likely, my build would still rotate around using Taste of Death Nova combos...

Of all the MM's I've seen, there's only one other MM who does what I do. Forgot her name, we worked well together though our teammates had to actually work aside from stand there and let minion butlers do all the work...

But the end result? Enemies sure died a lot faster when the minions went POP...

I suppose, thanks to my unique MM play style, I can just point and laugh at all of you whiners... My minions STILL are effective...

Besides, death breeds more death if you do it right. Keeping animates alive doesn't make you a 'master' of death. What's neat is that it also serves as a failsafe. Need hp or energy, eat a minion, BOOM...

The EoE counter would be VERY hilarious to see with a full army of minions going pop all covered with Death Novas...

flawless650 · Apr 28, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

I hope that this nerf would mean that A.Net is trying to make minion master a viable build for PvP, without the need to amass a huge army. I wouldn't mind seeing corpses being exploited more than once after they balance out the other death skills such as putrid and wells.

Reve2uk · Apr 28, 2006, 08:02 PM // 20:02

i hate this, whats the point in a MM with 10 minons, in the later lvls/SF in PvE they will die in like one/two hits, so u need loads to maintain them and without a minon a MM is screwd...... just seems like they have got rid of the true minon master........... wish they would just get rid of the vampric horrors, if that is the reason, cos tbh...... MF in HA is just a build to play for fun and in 12v12 u can counter it easly with nearly any profession, jsut bringa a necro with wells or putrid or cunsome corpes... and a warroir with high defence didn't realy have to worry about them any way......

was fun in 12v12 with a masive army running at u being a W/N with Vetras aura/CC........... only differcne now is that the MM will have less chance

Xpl0iter · Apr 28, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

isin't that the whole freakin point dude? less chance for MM means more chance for others to balance this out. How many builds which are considered good, have u seen without MM? If mm is such a viable part of this game, but there has to be a limit to its usage. Every other kid i see is standing N/Mo telling me how his MM do this and that. What you need to realize is that it was cause of MM that mesmers and eles stoped being taken to sf, and even Tombs.
Barrage pet group like i said before, stood at the back of a minnion mastered and created chaos. Felt quite pathetic.
Yeh, it was fun when you could just swamp through 12 people with your 30 minnions like they were nothing compared to you, and that exactly was the point. The ONE man army as i call it, had to be tonned down a bit. You Being too overpowered is not a great thing for others, unless they are by your side? Beats me if that is what you all aree trying to prove at this point. One of the MM said clearly here that he is still effective with MM after the CAP of minnions. Seems like he is using a custom made build, and not a cookie cutter which most of the MMs now adays do. Honestly, what was the difference between an OLD timer ele, with couple of skills being casted at foes who wont budge, to an MM who just creates minnions, and heal them. Infact, raising more, seems a better option since they just used to kill so fast, ain't that true MMs?

Regardz
An Elementalist.

Dr. Fire · Apr 28, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Come on people, this is nothing new. Any time a build has become to dominant it has been nerfed. My first character back in the GW beta weekend days was a Necro. I can remember in the early days of the game being kicked from group after group because no one respected the abilities of the Necro. Get in a group, Ele showed up, poof, kicked from the group. Now as time goes on we find ways to make the Necro powerful, and now groups can't live without them. As I was studying the new skills that were coming out with Factions my mouth was watering at the powers the Necro would have. Ahh, alas, Arena.net also knew this and took action to keep things balanced. Nothing new. My prediction of A-net's next nerf victim-------------------------RANGER------------wait and see.

Dev121 · Apr 28, 2006, 09:35 PM // 21:35

I havent read all posts so sorry if this has been said
IT ISNT nerfed -> just harder to play , so many ppl could make a mm and play the game easy now you have to try to keep you minions alive and have 10 up at all time!!

Ka RaTae · Apr 28, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

I love how any thing popular that works well is called cookie cuter, and you are lame for using it. Limited skills sets here people. Limited even more by the fact that more then half the skills are crap in PvP, and the others are Crap for PvE.

And lets be honest here...the blowing up minions is not a unique idea. Most people don't do it becuase this games targeting system SUCKS so badly. Since they have cut the minions down so much...the least the could do is put the minions in the party window now so that you actually could enchat them....ohh but that will never happen because actually being able to easily click on them would be OVERPOWERED. Then death nova would be getting the call for the NERF bat I guess. I'm sorry, but it just feels like the devs are starting to make changes just for the sake of change. We play the game...it was designed for us. So maybe they should actually take into account what people want to play. Or they can take the route of it's my game and I don't want to see it played in that manner and wacth their cash cow die.

Ka RaTae · Apr 28, 2006, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeVaNeY121

I havent read all posts so sorry if this has been said
IT ISNT nerfed -> just harder to play , so many ppl could make a mm and play the game easy now you have to try to keep you minions alive and have 10 up at all time!!

I think it is actually eaiser to keep them alive now thanks to BoTM changes. You may start to see some funky Golem build for PvP where say your team controls 4 or 5 golems. Just think how much chaos..5 golems...5 Necros..3 Monks could cause. The Necs would have 75% DR and never have a condition. The Golems would be at +10 pips health regen constantly, and also get over 120 healing anywhere on the board if needed. No one would be prepared for that at first and it could role. Hell those golems hit for up to 130hp on 60 armor targets.

Valkyries · Apr 28, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

isin't that the whole freakin point dude? less chance for MM means more chance for others to balance this out. How many builds which are considered good, have u seen without MM? If mm is such a viable part of this game, but there has to be a limit to its usage. Every other kid i see is standing N/Mo telling me how his MM do this and that. What you need to realize is that it was cause of MM that mesmers and eles stoped being taken to sf, and even Tombs.
Barrage pet group like i said before, stood at the back of a minnion mastered and created chaos. Felt quite pathetic.
Yeh, it was fun when you could just swamp through 12 people with your 30 minnions like they were nothing compared to you, and that exactly was the point. The ONE man army as i call it, had to be tonned down a bit. You Being too overpowered is not a great thing for others, unless they are by your side? Beats me if that is what you all aree trying to prove at this point. One of the MM said clearly here that he is still effective with MM after the CAP of minnions. Seems like he is using a custom made build, and not a cookie cutter which most of the MMs now adays do. Honestly, what was the difference between an OLD timer ele, with couple of skills being casted at foes who wont budge, to an MM who just creates minnions, and heal them. Infact, raising more, seems a better option since they just used to kill so fast, ain't that true MMs?

Regardz
An Elementalist.

Again I completely agree... someone with a good head on their shoulders.

Regards,
A NECRO

Quote:

Come on people, this is nothing new. Any time a build has become to dominant it has been nerfed. My first character back in the GW beta weekend days was a Necro. I can remember in the early days of the game being kicked from group after group because no one respected the abilities of the Necro. Get in a group, Ele showed up, poof, kicked from the group. Now as time goes on we find ways to make the Necro powerful, and now groups can't live without them. As I was studying the new skills that were coming out with Factions my mouth was watering at the powers the Necro would have. Ahh, alas, Arena.net also knew this and took action to keep things balanced. Nothing new. My prediction of A-net's next nerf victim-------------------------RANGER------------wait and see.

I made a similar reference before but no one decided to take the bait. This is soooo true in EVERY game... not only Guild Wars. Something gets dominant it gets nerfed a bit to make the gameplay balanced. Plain a simple. It happens in Warcraft it happens in Magic (for those old school players), it happens in EVERY SINGLE GAME because if not it would not cause balance correctly. What I love about Guild Wars is that it is really well balanced. And its not like there isnt options for Necros. MM is still very viable. Please cry me a river that you cannot go with 40 minions now and solo yourself to where ever you want and just stay in the background to collect items. MM now is more balanced as it should be. All the classes are pretty balanced out.... I hope it stays this way. ANet does a great job. You guys need to stop crying about your build being nerfed because you can't solo every part of the game anymore and realize what they are trying to accomplish. And that is well rounded game play where every class is welcomed and has a place.

byteme! · Apr 29, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

The "nerfing of MM's HAD TO HAPPEN NO MATTER WHAT. With the release of factions you have 2 new skills. One that raises a potential lvl 28 golem and another skill that raises minions that heal you whenever they deal dmg. If you had 20-30 minions fighting and healing you that would be what we call, "OVER POWERED". You would never die. Your army would be ridiculously strong. I'm surprised no one ever mentioned this point. 10 minion's is a very nice number in my opinion considering the new skills provided in Factions.

Serra Knightfang · Apr 29, 2006, 01:53 AM // 01:53

The one thing I don't understand is why MMs were nerfed and 55s weren't. 55 builds see MUCH more use than MMs did and they didn't even get touched.

Nigel Strange · Apr 29, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Xploiter, by the quote quoted above by Ka RaTae, reminds me of people who enjoy watching others suffer because they have suffered. It reminds me of people alcoholics who jump with evil glee when they see the smokers getting more taxes because they can say to them "Ha! We've been taxed since th 30's so get used to it!" Then, both groups can gang up on the motorcycle helmet law flauters or the seatbelt outlaws and say: "You deserve more suffering because of what I've had to endure."

No, my friends, this is not the way. We must stick together and with one uholy shout cause the walls of classism to be stricken assunder. We all want to enjoy the game, and nobody wants to be slapped down because they had managed to find a little niche of success in something. I was an elementalist before I became a necro, so I've been nerfed twice. What's next? As we go forth bravely into new professions that have not yet been nerfed, must we constantly watch the skies for a sign that an evil god is waiting to smite us once again? Must we shrink in horror every time we see the message that "A new build is available, log out and come back in depowered?"

No. Unite! It's time to let the gods know that we don't care if we have their favor or not. It's time to let them start thinking about whether they have OUR favor.

JimmyDean · Apr 29, 2006, 03:00 AM // 03:00

First of all, i feel that you guys are reallly overreacting. You have to admit that in pve a MM could easily kill just about anything you came across in seconds. MMs were incredibly powerful. The minions were also easy to keep alive, despite them losing health over time. So, what weve lost is the ability to make very large armies, and some of our healing ability. That kinda sucks. We did gain some very ncie stuff, however. Flesh golem is a very nice spell, as are the vampiric horrors. Instead of thinking how the old build will no longer steamroll everything in pve, think about how you can make a new build involving all of these awesome skills and items thayve made avaliable to you. Instead of going for the fotm cookie cutter giant army aproach, why not go for 3 minions, which seems ideal. You get a bonus for having 3 minions from the new armor, veratas recharges isntantly when you only have 3, and you have a very powerful high level minion which pretty much lasts forever. You could throw blood magic into the mix for life taps and DoTs, while your flesh golem slaughters stuff and your vamp horrors keep you alive. I also feel that this "nerf" is actually beneficial for death necros in pvp. Due to a small supply of corpses, you cant get a huge army rolling. Flesh golem and vampiric horrors really give you alot of bang for your corpse. Theres lots of stuff you can do, you guys just refuse to see past the nerf. Just because you cant solo missions now doesnt mean necros suck.

Xpl0iter · Apr 29, 2006, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Strange

Xploiter, by the quote quoted above by Ka RaTae, reminds me of people who enjoy watching others suffer because they have suffered. It reminds me of people alcoholics who jump with evil glee when they see the smokers getting more taxes because they can say to them "Ha! We've been taxed since th 30's so get used to it!" Then, both groups can gang up on the motorcycle helmet law flauters or the seatbelt outlaws and say: "You deserve more suffering because of what I've had to endure."

For a profession which laughed upon other profession when the other profession got nerfed, shouldn't expect any decency in return. Have you ever been in shoes of those people who join a group, and others leave just because they consider them worthless in their farming build compared to a necro? What i have said is this. We have endured, and still going through a nerf, and you guys have just hit the very first one in long long time. I suggest you start working with a balanced power, and stop crying over the nerf. Just like suggested to us, which we DID work for. In easy words, no one realizes what they are doing to other professions as long as they are treated like the most important profession of the game in terms of damage dealing. Just because you have been tonned down to another professions class to some extent, you end up telling me that i am telling you to *endure the pain that we have suffered?* Quite a wrong assumption.
If my english sucked, since i am writing on a short notice, let me know, i will redo the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Strange

No, my friends, this is not the way. We must stick together and with one uholy shout cause the walls of classism to be stricken assunder. We all want to enjoy the game, and nobody wants to be slapped down because they had managed to find a little niche of success in something. I was an elementalist before I became a necro, so I've been nerfed twice.

I sticked to the profession i loved the most. You on the other hand adopted to a profession which was used at most by every one in a farming build. Question is, how exactly do you consider your self true to a profession which you have a desire to leave once it gets nerfed? Are you telling me that you will stop playing a necro too now? Unless your looking at this game like a *game* and simply going for any profession in demand to get what you want. This nerf, like any other sure hurts necros quite badly, but what I meant to say when i said about Us eles being nerfed, was that, live with it. You will not be buffed. I have participated in one of the biggest petitions out there to get ELE power back which they had before AI. trust me, they wont change any thing.

Being honest, you also need to look at the other side of this nerf. Eles, which were nearly thrown out of every PVE farming build, were revived to some extent with this CAP, since it passivly buffed them.

I smell balance, what about you my friend?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyDean

First of all, i feel that you guys are reallly overreacting. You have to admit that in pve a MM could easily kill just about anything you came across in seconds. MMs were incredibly powerful. The minions were also easy to keep alive, despite them losing health over time. So, what weve lost is the ability to make very large armies, and some of our healing ability. That kinda sucks. ........ Theres lots of stuff you can do, you guys just refuse to see past the nerf. Just because you cant solo missions now doesnt mean necros suck.

I actualy agree with him. Soloing areas with minnions, and enjoying most resourceful farming areas was a cheese cake for MMs on their own. Well, lets face it, MMs need to use more than 4 skills now, which i will say, most MMs use, and leave other 4 skills for no usage.
See what you could comeup with to fill those 4 slots of skills with to support your minnions now. You may find something worthwhile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serra Knightfang

The one thing I don't understand is why MMs were nerfed and 55s weren't. 55 builds see MUCH more use than MMs did and they didn't even get touched.

Who knows ANET might nerf 55s farming through the addition of mesmers and necros for strip enchantment purposes? You do not neccessarily need to nerf skills in order to nerf a farming build, specially when it is based on enchantments.

Regardz
An Elementalist.

Valkyries · Apr 29, 2006, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyDean

First of all, i feel that you guys are reallly overreacting. You have to admit that in pve a MM could easily kill just about anything you came across in seconds. MMs were incredibly powerful. The minions were also easy to keep alive, despite them losing health over time. So, what weve lost is the ability to make very large armies, and some of our healing ability. That kinda sucks. We did gain some very ncie stuff, however. Flesh golem is a very nice spell, as are the vampiric horrors. Instead of thinking how the old build will no longer steamroll everything in pve, think about how you can make a new build involving all of these awesome skills and items thayve made avaliable to you. Instead of going for the fotm cookie cutter giant army aproach, why not go for 3 minions, which seems ideal. You get a bonus for having 3 minions from the new armor, veratas recharges isntantly when you only have 3, and you have a very powerful high level minion which pretty much lasts forever. You could throw blood magic into the mix for life taps and DoTs, while your flesh golem slaughters stuff and your vamp horrors keep you alive. I also feel that this "nerf" is actually beneficial for death necros in pvp. Due to a small supply of corpses, you cant get a huge army rolling. Flesh golem and vampiric horrors really give you alot of bang for your corpse. Theres lots of stuff you can do, you guys just refuse to see past the nerf. Just because you cant solo missions now doesnt mean necros suck.

This is a really good point. I never considered the really big benefits this so called "nurf" had for PVP. You are absolutely right. This actually even makes MM a viable build in PVP. And before I have to say it really was not. I HAVE seen MM's in PVP dont get me wrong, but 90% of necros were Order/SS/Tainted. Now with this, they could have very strong creatures, only keep a few around (because there isn't many corpses) and have a powerhouse instead of a bunch of little things that'll get slaughtered.

Quality is better than Quantity.